General Discussion on Shellie’s Case

This will be our thread for general discussion on Shellie’s case. You may ask any questions you wish here and we will try our best to answer any questions that you may have here.  We will also be posting a link to this thread on the right so it is easily accessible. You may register with our blog, which is not a register with WordPress to comment, or simply log in to your facebook and use your facebook account to comment!

Also, The Students for Justice have a nearly 100% complete printed record of all of the information collected on this case that is available to the pubic, so it you are looking for anything specific, please let us know and we can try to find it. Email Ali at justice4shellie@aol.com.

This entry was posted in "4 Guys in a Car" Scenario, Messages from Justice for Shellie, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

74 Responses to General Discussion on Shellie’s Case

  1. gotcha bac says:

    To you who are dedicated to finding Shellie’s killer(s):
    As Shellie’s parents and brother, we are pleased beyond our greatest expectations with the outstanding efforts of the young people who formed “Students for Justice for Shellie”, Miranda, “Clark Kent”, and you who provided inputs to the “JusticeForShellie.com” website.
    Using the “JusticeForShellie” website you have contributed over 1000 valuable posts and blogs. As a result, we feel that we are getting closer and closer to finding Shellie’s killer(s). The new “JusticeForShellie”, “Discussion/Blog” link provides us with more flexibility and control, while you as the user with excellent security.
    Please continue with your wonderful support through your comments and blogs. Thank you. We remain forever grateful.
    Sincerely, Charlotte, Bill and Drew Carson

    • linda says:

      I saw shelly rideing her bike on va blvd that night she looked very young to me I wondered why she was out so late I was driving a city bus at the time I did notice a white or cream color car following her pretty close with two men one driving was white and husky and a passenger small white the car was med sized I didn’t get a lience plate I wish I had . im sorry I never thought I could help but after all this time it still bothers me ! god bless you !

      • Linda Justice would like very much to meet with you, as we think the information you have could be very valuable to our investigation. You can contact Justice in two ways. Justice’s email is Justice for Shellie@aol.com or you can contact Shellie’s father Bill Carson at 560 0678. You will remain anonymous. We can set up a meeting either at Bill’s or in a public place (library or Burger King etc.) Please contact us ASAP. Justice

        • Psalms 93 says:

          Content edited and redacted by Miranda for usage of real names. But I will pass the info on to Clarke. Thank you!

      • Linda:
        Justice would very much like to meet you, as we think the information you have could be very valuable to our investigation. You can contact Justice in 2 ways: Justice for shellie @aol.com or call Shellie’s father Bill Carson at 560-0678. You will remain anonymous. We can set up a meeting either at Bill’s house or a public place (library or wendys) Please contact us ASAP. Thank you Justice.

  2. lookingforyou33 says:

    I was so disappointed when the Justice for Shellie thread was pulled from Websleuths, but was thrilled when a friend told me it now appeared on the Justice for Shellie website. I live in Virginia Beach and hear people discuss Shellie and know that locals probable have pieces of information that can help solve this brutal murder. I know the locals that have followed the case but don’t post. I will encourage the Virginia Beach community to participate and post comments, even if they don’t think the information is relevant. Thanks again Justice for Shellie for all your effort.

  3. Pingback: Ford 150 Pickup Keys at Murder Site | Justice For Shellie Blog

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  5. Pingback: Don T. Observation at 5 AM on 8-14-05 | Justice For Shellie Blog

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  9. Anonymous says:

    I have started reading all the archives and have come across a few things that seem to have conflicting information.
    First I think i would have to question Don T’s credibilty due to a few things and I also have a few questions in regards to Don T.
    First I have copied the post dated feb 21-2012
    It states that Don T started his walk around 445-5am, however in another post it states around 402 am?
    That is a big gap in time.
    Also it is stated below that he saw 2 bicycle riders?
    However in other posts it states he saw a girl on a bike.
    So therefore which is it? How can he make that big of a mistake in stating 2, then it changes to 1?
    Also it states he saw what appeared to be a dodge pickup, then it was changed to a ford?
    He states the truck was parked on the circle, I would like to know where on the circle he thinks it was parked, was it along side the circle, or actually in the circle?
    Where on Kingston school property was he standing at exactly?
    It is stated below he sees police activity, and proceeds to walk through the circle.
    Now if he sees this activity and is walking right there through the circle, then my question is with all the police activity did the police not see him?
    If they did one would asume that the police on scene would have stopped and questioned him right then and there to see if he saw anything unusual.
    Also he states that police are not allowed to use their sirens prior to 6am, after much research I have found that is not a law or ordinance. Police officers can use their sirens 24 hours a day, However some officers find they do not need to use it during the night or early morning hours unless there is traffic etc, it is up to the discretion of the officers.
    This particular morning the officers in route chose to use the sirens due to the fact of the severeity of the crime.
    I have checked on the laws of this with the VBPD.
    Next why would he Don T go to his minster and sate he thinks he may have been a witness, he may have seen something, why go to the minsiter and not directly to the police.
    Now onto the letter that was delivered to the church, what became of the secretary and the sketch artist, what did she say the man looked like?
    I would like to see some questions answered by the BF, I am not in anyway, shape or form stating he had anything to do with it, however, by his “blowups” it doesnt help make him look inocent.
    he has stated he is close with the family and loves them, so my question is this, does he have contact with the family? What is he doing to help in this?
    Why will he NOT answer the questions that have been asked directly? One would assume that if he wanted to make the world know he had nothing to do with this, then he would be more than willing to answer any and all questions without getting so ANGRY..
    Only thing to needs to come of this and that is for all citizens to come together to help in finding the murderer, have respect for all other opinions and to have respect for Shellie and her family.

    Don T. Observation at 5 AM on 8-14-05
    Posted on February 21, 2012 by Justice4Shellie

    Written by Clarke Kent

    Spoke to Don T first in an interview on 12/24/11 and again on 12/27/11.

    The reason we are interests is two-fold. First, his time line indicates that the discovery of Shellie’s body may have been earlier than 6:09 AM. Secondly, he talks of a pickup truck parked on the circle at what could be as early as 5:15 AM.

    I will summarize our interview:

    Don T is well known in the community. He is very credible and volunteers this information. Since he had heart problems, he takes long walks with his dog early in the morning as part of his therapy. Since he does this walk daily, he is familiar with the geography and other “early risers”. He did observe a pickup truck he believes was parked on the circle. He remembers that a small Honda ( VA Pilot delievery) honked his horn at the parked pickup (which he describes as possibly a Dodge pickup) to let him pass. The pickup abruptly accelerated, cause his tires to screech loudly. The pickup advanced around the circle with a right turn on Kings Grant Rd. toward him. He was standing on the Kingston Elementary School property and described the person in the passenger seat as tall and had a beard. The pickup proceeded past him.

    Of note—anyone familiar with the area knows that there is no egress since Kings Grant Rd. ends at Buchanan Creek and West Lynnhaven River. Either the pickup or the occupants live in the area or made a mistake since it is a dead end.

    After the pickup passed, Don proceeded by crossing Kings Grant Rd. on to Kingston Drive and at Oxford, he turned right onto Little Neck Rd and walked about 3 blocks. Don then turned around on Little Neck and returned towards Kings Grant Rd. At this point, it is approximately 5:50 AM and Don sees and hears 2 police cars with sirens fully blasting, racing towards Kings Grant Rd. He remembers the time since he knows that police aren’t allowed to use the sirens until 6 AM. Don proceeded on Little Neck and turned left at Kings Grant Rd. toward the circle. He observed police activity but walked through the circle and continued home.

    I just got off the phone with Don again and read this summary. He agreed but also told me he started his walk between 4:45- 5 AM and at 5:15 AM saw 2 bicycle riders, but did not think anything out of the ordinary.

    We have determined that on August 14th, 2005, twilight was at 5:53 AM and sunrise was 6:21 AM.

  10. VB LOCAL says:

    Quick question: Was Shellie was right- or left-handed?

  11. V.B. LOCAL just asked Bill and he said she was right handed.

  12. CypressMom says:

    Did anyone see this response to Clarke Kent’s post about interviewing the owner of the vacant house. No one seems to have addressed his response, so I thought I would re-post it here:

    The Fulton Falcon says:
    July 17, 2012 at 7:07 pm
    1.) The white minivan seen the Saturday afternoon before Shellie’s murder parked on the circle near the vacant house, did it have any signage on it? like was it a church van, or a military van, or a group transporter? If it was all white with no signage, were the row of seats uniform like it would carry passengers rather than a van carrying a family? Could Jimmy C. see if the driver was looking in the direction of the vacant house?
    2.) Has anyone profiled Robert and Helen Smallidge and whether they had children who ever lived in the house. If they had children: even if they were older, did they know Shellie from the neighborhood? Did their children have sleepovers in the house with relatives or friends from previous years to 8/2005? Did any of the family/friends/relatives keep an extra key to the house? Did the Smallidges ever temporarily keep a tenant in the house who was a relative or friend of their children?

    • Juliet says:

      Wait im confused.. there was a white van parked at the circle the day before shellies murder? Who saw this van, jimmy c? And the person driving was just sitting there? When he says a white van, does he mean a honda oddessey or an actual van. I am confused i dont remember this. Clarke please refresh my memory.

  13. CypressMom says:

    Related to the post WEB SNOOPING AT WORK

    Found this in the Urban dictionary (started thinking bannas was plural for banna). He’s talking about the close 4 friends, and who can be closer than people who murder someone together

    BANNA
    A Guyanese term for a close freind of yours 
    Its used in the same context as dude,bwoy,nigga,bredrin,homie
    Whats up banna? 
    Dem bannas be wilding these days!! 

    Source:  http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=banna

  14. CypressMom says:

    “I asked Jimmy C if he could remember anything that might be considered important or peculiar on that Saturday. He said that during the day he noticed that a white Ford minivan was parked on Kings Grant Circle in front of his property. ”

    Source:  http://justiceforshellie.com/blog/?p=73

    “his mother drove a 1994-1995 White Ford econoline 4 door car. We believe that the ’94-’95 white Ford econoline was SOLD disposed, while the gold Nissan Pathfinder and green Ford 150 straight pick up were retained.”

    Source:  http://justiceforshellie.com/blog/?p=51

    A Ford Econoline is a van, but I don’t know that it would be classified as a mini-van.  Is Jimmy C a foreigner?  If he is, he might be used to seeing vans larger than ours to carry larger families, so the Econoline might look like a mini-van to him.  Also, notice, that the white van was gotten rid of by the BH/MH family.  That was the mother’s vehicle.

    Did Shellie have a habit of riding her bike?  If she did?  Did she often ride through that circle?  If so, could it be possible, that MH was casing the house in his mother’s van so he would not be recognized.  Maybe they happened to see Shellie that night at the 7-11 and there were no cars there, but they saw a bike and assumed that she would be riding it home…so they seized the opportunity to wait for her near the vacant house with sexual intentions.  But something really went wrong.  Maybe she wasn’t knocked out as they intended, and she put up a struggle to keep from being forced into a house she also knew was vacant?  Where exactly was she knocked off her bike, because if it was in the circle closest to the vacant house, that would be a direct line to the side and back of the house, completely covered by tree cover and possibly shrubbery.
    Since the white van was seen near that house earlier in the day, in broad daylight, they got rid of it so connection could not be made. You might be able to explain one vehicle Ford 150, but a White van also…what is the chance that one family would that knows Shellie would own both those cars.

    Last question: regarding the earlier comment about 2 bikes vs. 1 bike. Did the 7-11 clerk also ride his bike to work. An earlier post states that he escorted her most of the way home. Could he have left her after completing half of the circle, thinking he would “circle” back to work?

    • Juliet says:

      Very interesting about this white van
      Cypress mom is correct about mh mother driving a white van that was disposed of. Could this be the vehicle that was hidden at MaH home? So many cooncidences…

  15. (MS) says:

    you have any questions for memake your comments short and simple and I will answer them I’m not going to read your whole paragraph.I just as much is going to find out who’s done it as everybody else,and Mr Justice contact me seems like you’re getting your kicks off this from my perspective along with have you busy bodies out there :/

  16. clarke kent says:

    MS Bill told me that when you called him with CT on 2/17/14 you had mentioned that on the date of the murder of Shellie you were not in Va Bch. Could be more specific to Justice on where you actually were? I would like to set up a dialogue with you and ask you one question at a time and allow you to respond on our website. We can start today with the above question.Justice can assure that are only intension is to get at the truth and to that end we seek your cooperation.

    • (MS) says:

      II was in Norfolk living in my house working at Smith & blank.morning I found out I don’t you remember the date exactly what I saw on the news channel 10 somebody in Kings grant was murdered in the first if it if it was male nor female I thought not too much about itlater on that morning when to work got to my job site around lunchlook at my phone saw DNR called call him back his first words out of his mouth word it shelley I said what are you talking about sounded down andagin he said it shelley I said what do you mean didn’t put you into together the time then you said shelly got murdered she’s dead and I saidthat’s how I found out that’s where I was any more questions?now you tell me this.how did DNR you know about it the day off the news release? Come on y’all y’all a smart come on. Is that a good enough answer?.!

  17. inquiring mind says:

    hi (MS), just a suggestion/question. Have you ever called Crime Stoppers or thought about calling them if you thought DNR was involved? Even if it were just a gut feeling? Thanks in advanced!

    • professional opinion says:

      update:recent information finding show that it was a contractors levelleft on CT’s doorstep.also over her dead the person to put it thereor persons-are familiar individuals.you know who you are and that was a foolish mistake

      • gigi says:

        mary texted me very late at night. “are you mad at me?” I said “no why?” Mary “because ***** said you saw him at work and disapproved of my being with ****.” my response” no shelly **** seems like a nice boy and you need to stop playing with *** telling him your pregnant and stuff” I and a friend who owned a green ranger met mary’s boyfriend by chance at his job in the mall it was like a sears or something. we talked about how mary was in a relationship with a african american boy we worked with at burger king. he was a nice chuby kid but he was ghetto and i tried my best to keep her out of trouble she was my best friend. we often walked home from work together or rode bikes. the morning she was found before it hit the news **** called me fake crying “someone murdered shelly” he instructed me to call mary’s parents to convince them to speak to him. there were so many people who hated mary. MS CT DMG Devin ***** also on our way home from work one day a guy said he was a photographer for a black magazine said she had the right “look” for his magazine and wanted her number. she gave it to him. I told her not to. she never listened to me (irrelevant maybe?):( DMG had a ford pickup that was a nasty red color. mary told me her boyfriend’s sister had beat her up. also CT ‘s neighbor was DMG boss (a corner house on baldwin street) who was friends/neighbors with another person I and DMG worked for they had a white van that was used to haul carpet and tile gear I did one or two jobs with them and decided they were wayyy to weird. CT would often harass Mary in front of me and she told me it was because “I got him in trouble” she told me what happened but that was so long ago I just remember him circling us on his bike saying he was gonna get her and i crashed my bike i was so scared of him.

    • (MS) says:

      no I had nothing I didn’t want to have nothing to do with any of it. At the time I was working he was out doing his thing I was making a life for myself sounds selfish but that’s just the way it is.

      • inquiring mind says:

        Thank you for your reply, (MS). That is understandable.
        1. Would you be willing to now, knowing that Crime Stoppers is annonymous?
        2. Or, at the very least, provide to Justice the real identity of DNR or make a positive ID from photos?

        (The second part needs no public answer for your safety and namesake, if it is a ‘yes’ then all I can hope is that you make the right choice and contact Justice) If no, it is still understandable. Thank you again, (MS).

  18. (MS) says:

    SO What’s new ?? Any new info on the case? Haven’t checked out this blog in a long while?
    Fill me in,What’s the word around the camp fire? ?

    • clarke kent says:

      MS The camp fire is still going strong.Since the last time you commented April 7th much has been discussed most dealing with other suspects. The level issue was a distraction but discussed at great length. Your contribution will be respected, and your opinion will be published. Justice is aware of your circumstances as a father with a solid family and your desire to distance your self from earlier choices. We wish you well and are happy for your mature choices. Helping Justice in any capacity, may help another father who misses dearly his daughter.

      • (MS) says:

        kind of don’t know what to say but I appreciate you understand my circumstances and I definitely feel the pain I guess let me know but there is then I would like to personally talk toyou may have find interesting…

  19. (MS) says:

    long time since I looked at the blog any new information on the case just curious?

    • Moles says:

      What I don’t understand is everyone knows who DNR is but no one says it’s like that is made up, out of no where. I guess he is either in jail or dead. Someone has a picture of him for sure, just e-mail that if you have one no will ever know and snitch heaven continues. It took a while but I understand what a snitch is and why no one wants to be known as one. But this is a murder and everyone lives by a code for something. I don’t know you but you seem to have a code and try like the rest of us just to live, work and be happy some of the time. Why not just e-mail it or have someone else e-mail it to justice or hell copy it and send it through the mail. It’s that easy, man. Sometimes hero’s are born, sometimes hero’s have codes and sometimes hero’s just have a heart.

  20. inquiring mind says:

    Hi, (MS). Welcome back! I am glad you are back! I have a few questions for you, not about you but wondering if you could answer for me being that you are of the same group of people and you know their mind set and chatter.

    That night around 2:30ish am, Shellie left the party because she got upset with MS2 or CT or LJ, do you know/have a thought which one and why?

    Can you help me with what may have happened at the park across from 711 after she left the party? I know she was not killed then, but I am asking for more detail than I already know… if you know any at all.

    I have one more question…. but I cannot ask on here. I need to ask privately. If you can contact Clarke and we can set up a way to communicate briefly to have this question answered. My question and your answer will stay as it is, between us.

  21. inquiring mind says:

    (MS), sorry. One more thing. Do you know of, or anything about, the clerk at 711 that night? MF? If so, what can you tell us? Anything at all would be great! As well as the other person working that night or other person who works nights, since you were not there that night. If you could find out who it was that would be great!

  22. (MS) says:

    So let me get this right? There’s new suspects??…new leads? Fill me in!…

    • inquiring mind says:

      We are discussing possibilities of her coach, PH being the killer.

      Also, while we did not discuss NL being the killer, we did briefly discuss possible involvement of NL and a few others. I am sure if you think hard enough you will know who NL is. I know you know this person. Any input once you figure it out would be great. He moved shortly after the murder, him and his family.

    • inquiring mind says:

      Basically if you read all the posts in the archives (right column, all the way at the bottom) going back to June. There were earlier posts before June about NL and such and the most recent about PH begin around July or August.

  23. (MS) says:

    Check on it…

  24. L says:

    Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but it was said in “Justice – PH a Good Samaritan or a Viable POI?” that- “the fact that the last person seeing her alive saw her turn on that right curve and lost visibility on her.” Here, among other places, we confirm that the last person to see her alive at the time was Don T if I’m not mistaken.

    However, about a month later, in his own first hand account, the man who found Shellie’s body, “…described hearing her gurgle which brought tears to his eyes. ” Does this not mean that he was the last person to see Shellie alive? Regardless of what state she was in, he claimed to hear her gurgle. I suppose he was referring to what is known as a “death rattle – a gurgling sound heard in a dying person’s throat”. “DYING person’s throat,” not dead. Along his accounts of protesting that she was alive, it’s my opinion that, if not already done so, it should be established that PH was the last person to see Shellie alive. Relevant? I don’t know.

    LJP must have one hell of a lawyer.

    • Miranda says:

      Yes, but we are not even sure that she was alive. From my understanding, when the paramedics got there, they did not even take life saving measures and just covered her. But I see your point.

      And LJP’s daddy is a lawyer.

  25. KG says:

    Is he a lawyer in VB? I can’t find him in a Google search. Heritage construction comes up. Was that a business that ljp owned?

  26. L says:

    Woke up in the middle of the night and realized that the body was likely meant to be found, possibly for shock value. She was likely transported in a car so why not place her body in a better location if they were trying to protect themselves? Murderer/s could be in a rush, yes, but with a few minutes of extra effort, they probably could have prevented her from being found for much longer, giving them ample time to distance themselves. Just a thought.

    • Clarke Kent says:

      L Justice believes that Shellie was transported in a pick up truck, because we believe she was transported with her bike. The original location of the assault was in an area that might have compromized the killer because the closeness to a residence of one of those involved might reveal that person. Justice further believes that there were 2 Vehicles at the dumping of the body at the Circle. Justice further believes that the 2 vehicles were observed by Don T. at 5:15 AM on the morning of the discovery at 6:09AM of Aug 14,2005. The observer Don T also was eye witness to both vehicles retreating from the Circle with great haste. The 2 vehicles passed Don T at a distance of 20 feet. Don T. observed a male with a beard in the passenger seat.We have spoken and interviewed Don T. over 20 times and find him absolutely reliable.

      • Moles says:

        PH gave it a lot of effort so he says how he found her which is unbelievable in the first place. I as one believe she was seeing PH. I think MF and Shellie knew PH quite well. I also believe PH was using Shellie in deals that’s why Shellie was at MS’s home a lot not because she had a bad home life but because these people were also using her. That’s why supposedly CT didn’t want anything to do with her which I do not believe. MS was doing more at his home than people think. MS2 to. The people that murdered Shellie were little wanna be’s don’t forget at that time. They are still the same wanna be’s now only older and more poorer. They never made any money from what they were doing they thought they would be more influential and domineering but they really messed that up. And MS2 what a loss of brain cells. Still doing the same thing and getting no where why because he can’t make it to the top. Such a waste. You know what’s worse is when we do find the people responsible some people will be crawling to the courthouse to find and look at this person. But what is really sad is how many people knew, how many people talked about, got drunk to make themselves feel better and just how many people would like this to happen to there family. How many families will be affected by this truth? How many families will cry because they sat back and did nothing? How many girls like Shellie will there be before we as a community stand and hold those accountable for her murder? How long will those that know keep quiet, what will it take for you to come forward? Go and confess on Sunday and ask the pastor for the truth.

        • L says:

          Is there any evidence that leads you to believe that Shellie was seeing PH? It would say a lot, but I haven’t come across any evidence.

          http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/ISJjuly2010.pdf – I read this journal today and it coincides with one of my original thoughts that, the person/people who staged (we do all agree that the scene was staged, correct?) her body likely had ulterior motive, besides making it look like an attack that was sexual in nature. Also, apparently sexual posing occurs in less than 1% of all homicides. Let me know what you think.

          • clarke kent says:

            L We have no proof or information that Shellie was involved with PH.The speculation started only after Don T saw what we believe was Shellie on Suffolk La and then he lost sight of her near PH residence. The time of the observation was 4:06AM to 4:12AM. Your second point concerning an assault at an unknown location and the staging of a sexual attack there is Justices theory.Some may disagree.From that location Shellie and her bike were moved to the King Grant Circle, where her body was found at Appx 6AM on Aug 14, 2005.

          • Moles says:

            I’m more accepting of believing now more than ever that PH wasn’t just riding his daughter to work and just happened to drive by a bike that was difficult to observe had to turn his head sharp left just to observe the bike then get out and find a body, I really don’t think so. Then co-worker comes on the blog and remembers him talking about sexual fantasies and he also talked about wearing women’s underwear and he supposedly told the co-worker people didn’t really know who he was. This guy is always at the right place at the right time. Coincidence you make your own decision. In my and just my opinion which could be wrong he after dropping his daughter off for work which I don’t believe, he was meeting Shellie where her bike was found and he was expecting to spend some time with her but before that happened she was murdered where he intended to meet her for some unknown reason. Or else she was at his home and things got out of hand then was placed at the circle for him to intentionally happen upon. Yu see PH is a very smart man who knew how to cover up messes.

            • gigi says:

              mary introduced me to an old white guy mid forties maybe who had a daughter she said it was a softball coach or something she gave me explicit details about things they did but i didnt believe her. i know alot of people she dated she also dated a guy who was a mid to late 20’s black guy a real street thug she told me he was bragging about he killed people before. i saw him one time and never wanted to be around him again. that guy scared the crap out of me.

              • Clarke Kent says:

                gigi If in fact your information is true it maybe very vital to this investigation.If you can share this with us we would appreciate you contacting Bill and myself. We would like to talk to us. You could reach Bill at 560 0678 or if you prefer send a private email to JUSTICEFORSHELLIE@AOL.COM

              • Moles says:

                GIGI wow you have great information to help Shellie. Call in to justice and talk to Clarke.

              • Juliet says:

                In this comment from gigi it states that Mary INTRODUCED her to an older man…
                But when you talked with her in person, she told you that he was outside in the hallway talking to the parents. Did she ever tell you that shellie had introduced them to each other? This might not seem like a big deal but those are 2 very different statements. So which is it? Or could it be that this info was made up for attention? Hmm

                • Clarke Kent says:

                  JULIET originally gigi stated that her coach was at the Carson home and talking to the parents near the front door and she was with Shellie at a location that they could observe him talking to her parents and she confided in her about the sexual activity and the intemidation she was getting from him. The introduction of him to gigi was related to me at our meeting. If it existed she never related meeting which would add another demention to what she reveals. She did mention him as her coach but only positively IDed him later when I sent her his picture and she recognized him as the man at the door. She never told me she was introduced to him. You are correct that she never revealed it until I read it in the blog. Good observation.

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